Wednesday, April 20, 2016

Shared Thoughts on the Culling (And this is my last post on this topic)

First, I would like to say thank you to everyone that has recently commented or e-mailed me regarding my posts.  The most popular posts at the moment seem to be:  Mulling the Culling, Mulling the Culling II and Coosawattee Campground (almost 800 page views since posting!).

Needless to say I have had a TON of traffic and lots of feedback and I APPRECIATE it.  Communication is the universal solvent and when done efficiently and respectfully can really accomplish a lot. 

Now, back to the 'culling'.  The debate seems to continue on.  Why some things get perpetuated to nausea is beyond me, but hey, whatever floats your boat.  I'm going to begin compiling the feedback I've gotten along with my own knowledge and research about the topic and begin posting some conclusions in this post - but please be warned - some of you may not like what I have to say.  So, in those instances, let's agree to disagree until we get this thing figured out. 

First, I'd like to share some thoughts that have been expressed to me.  I'll put them into brief bullet points as I don't want to quote the sources.  I'm sharing these thoughts as a reference of people's feelings.  The human mind will react in a survival instinct, and that instinct is based on initial, instantaneous feelings - feelings that will persist out of defiance even if the mind knows better.  To get anything done, people have to understand this, accept it and proceed with negotiations understanding it.  Now, for some thoughts/comments that have been sent to me and I'll add my opinion later on:

1.    People are disrespectful on the pro-cull side often resorting to name calling
2.    Most scientific facts that have been used by the pro-cull side could be disputed and are/were for the most part up for interpretation or twisted to serve a point
3.    Good information was peppered with falsehoods to suit personal beliefs and not complete fact
4.    Deer eat corn in nature and it does not hurt them.  (I must add, while it isn't the healthiest choice for them, it won't be the death of them either.  I know there are numerous articles with conflicting discussion.  The fact is that corn is to deer as energy drinks are to humans, and its actually heavy in starch and fattening, but not that most Americans have room to point fingers at any critters eating habits!!)
5.    I'm tired of hearing about the natural fauna being destroyed
6.    There aren't many deer in my neighborhood - is this problem only in certain areas?
7.    People are driving the cull notion for self serving desires
8.    If there is no food as people say wouldn't the deer move on?
9.    Are entire ecology is suffering because we have reduced natural predators so what difference does it make if we reduce the herd when the real problem has not been corrected (I agree whole heartedly with this comment.  A deer cull is only a bandage over the real ecological issues Man has created). 

That is only a sampling of the many comments that have been e-mailed to me, but no need to post all of them as many of them say virtually the same thing.  Now for my view.  I've thought long and hard about this and realistically, I think I have summed up my thoughts in previous posts.  But, here goes:

1.   The nastiness of both sides, though the most nasty has come from the 'pro' side, has got to stop.  Grown adults should not be acting this way and NOTHING will come of this continued behavior other than both sides entrenching themselves further to their ideal side of the issue.
2.   If anyone wants to truly set the eco system back to where it is supposed to be then you have to reintroduce natural predators back into the wild.  Anyone that says that the deer need to be thinned, but we should not inconvenience Man with predators, is preaching from a very personal soapbox and is not looking at a cull as a sustainable solution - only one that fixes the probably right now.  They are not a solution to the problem, rather an extension of it.
3.   The problem as described by a few people may truly not exist in all areas of Coosawattee.  We are, after all, a huge area.  I can say that in my neck of the woods I see some deer, but not to the extent that others report.  There may only be particular areas with higher population of deer and I am quite certain that the deer population is commensurate with the human population.  More people destroying the environment by deforestation to build houses (just being sarcastic) and planting non-indigenous species of plants will draw more deer.  Feeding doesn't help, either.
4.   The CRR Board needs to work with the property owners to reduce building by consolidating vacant lots either through designation of green space or re-platting. 

In summary:  Man has created this issue.  I won't beat the dead equine because I have a post that discusses this.  That said - Man will never be the solution.  Four things need to happen to fix this problem, if it is in fact a problem:

1.    Quit being stubborn and acting like spoiled children.  Communicate like grown adults and have civil, productive discussion to come to a consensus.  This may sound harsh, but we have all seen the actions of folks fighting over this issue and it isn't good.  Just stop!
2.    Reduce future human population/growth through vacant property consolidation and production of green space.
3.    Don't feed the deer.  No matter what you think  - and your intentions are probably good - they aren't starving.  Observe from afar, but leave them alone!  If there is nothing in CRR for them to eat they will move on.  Nature made it long before Man came along with our ill placed sympathies and will most likely make it long after we have destroyed ourselves.
4.    Talk with Forestry and Natural Resources about developing a plan to stabilize the eco system through reintroduction of natural species such as wolves.  Mass elimination of one species will not help long term.  Man has tried that approach many times in our past and it was never good. 

Hopefully this hasn't taken an authoritarian tone, but simply my thoughts and beliefs.  I would like to hear yours - but please keep it clean:)

Thanks again to everyone for reading my [sometimes] rambling thoughts.  As always, I love to hear from my readers and appreciate your communication.

That's it for now because the weather is absolutely stunning along the Coosawattee River.

Till next time,

 

Chris


26 comments:

Anonymous said...

The problem is almost entirely on the north side of the river, where large numbers of residents feed the deer. The damage on the south side is minimal because hunting is allowed south of CRR on private acreage that borders it.

You obviously just sit in your arm chair and listen to your friends. The name-calling has been quite equal on both sides of the argument-- particularly from Diane Anderson -- head of the current Ecosystem Committee. I'd be happy to post a copy of an email she sent to Charlie Gardner if you want proof. I can also send copies of emails from the DNR Wildlife Biologist stating how bad the problem is in CRR.

But then, you'd just delete them, wouldn't you? Like the rest of the management here, you are systematically deleting ALL evidence supporting that the deer are overabundant and damaging the ecosystem. Having done so, you then claim it was all "twisted" without ever verifying any of the information or providing proof.

So there really isn't any point in giving you facts. You've made up your mind that you know it all, and that your "friends" aren't deceiving you.

Your statement that "deer eat corn in nature" belies your ignorance. *Corn does not grow in nature.* Humans grow corn and deer raid it.

There are also predators in nature. Those predators keep the deer population in check. The simple fact is that God created deer to be food for predators. He But we have eliminated all predators except ourselves. And in CRR even humans aren't hunting them.

You have no knowledge at all of what was said to the original Eco-Team because you obviously did not attend any of the meetings and you have not read the reports. So you really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

The deer damage MY property extensively. I can show you evidence of that any time you wish. But I know you aren't interested in evidence. Your wish to be entertained by a huge overabundance of deer "Trumps" my right to enjoy my property without having to install a $7000 fence.

Nothing else needs to be said. You are just another example of the fine, impartial rational and considerate residents of CRRA.

Anonymous said...

Summarizing your above statements: "I am an expert. When I look out my window I can't see any problem. Therefore, no problem can possibly exist."

Nobody can have a "discussion" with someone like that.

Unknown said...

Charming as always. I guess my point is made. You can linger on me deleting ONE comment you put up as it contained a link to copyrighted material (You Tube music video) and was not relevant to the topic, but rather a casual dig at the BOD. Aside from that one incident I never delete comments, rather welcome them. Additionally, you reference me as being like the 'rest' of the management. I am not, nor do I have any desire to be in management of CRR. Those years are behind me. Your inability to rationally communicate has probably been the biggest downfall of your cause. Sorry to be so blunt - but there you go. I'm pretty sure I specifically stated that the issue may exist in certain areas of CRR, but not in all. I can't be everywhere at all times, so yes, that statement is made by my own observation - just as you observe deer in your yard as a nuisance when others would appreciate it. Furthermore, I also specifically stated that I back the No Feed belief. I do not feed and do not encourage it. Like it or not, change is slow and often avoided by many. Small steps are still steps in the right direction, but then, I guess that's not something YOU want to hear. Regards.

Anonymous said...

http://life-at-crr.blogspot.com/2014/04/how-wolves-and-deer-change-rivers.html

Anonymous said...

http://life-at-crr.blogspot.com/2014/03/8-ways-to-spot-deer-over-population.html

Brian Freeman said...

You can bash me all you want to Chris. If you want to discuss issues, discuss them. Give me your proof, not your opinions. Your comments are highly irrational and uninformed. Prove me wrong.

Oh, And thank you for inspiring me to open my blogsite again. I didn't really want to get into this mess again, but I couldn't let your disinformation and rumor-mongering here go unchallenged.

Brian Freeman said...

Some facts for you....

http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/30180000/AugustinePDF/9.2003_Ecoscience.pdf

Brian Freeman said...

Keep track on www.life-at-crr.com to see what your posts here have stirred up.

Anonymous said...

Chris, I love your blog. It's extremely informative, unbiased, and talks about Coosawattee in a positive way.

I'm so sorry that you are unfairly being given credit for 'unleashing the beast' of CRR (Mr. Freeman)! Hopefully, anyone that reads his blog site (IF anyone does) will immediately see what a crazy, lunatic he is and how obsessed he is at trying to prove that his opinion is not only the 'right' one, but the ONLY one possible!

Please continue to post your excellent blog and we will all continue to ignore his! Deal?

Anonymous said...

I agree with Mr. Freeman. Your posts on the subject of the deer are just wrong. "Deer eat corn in nature"....? Fetch me some "wild forest corn" please Chris... You know -- the kind that the deer eat in the woods. I'd like to cook some on my grill.

Herman said...

Also deer are territorial—when food is scarce or non-exsistent they do NOT "move on."

Brian Freeman said...

Exactly correct, Herman. Another myth that deer-huggers cling to.

Brian Freeman said...

On Friday I had a long and very enjoyable conversation with a current Board Member.

One of the points I brought up is how difficult it is for uneducated and/or inexperienced people to recognize the damage caused by deer. They look for "damage"as if it were something they could see -- like trees blown down by a tornado. The damage caused by an over-abundance of deer is mostly recognized by what you CANNOT SEE THAT YOU *SHOULD* SEE.

For example, an absence of native wildflowers and plants and shrubs that ONLY GROW UNDER HIGHLY SHADED CANOPIES. Solomon Seal, False Solomon Seal, Trilliums, Mayapples, Fitonia, Wintergreen, Wild Blueberries.... literally HUNDREDS of native plants that SHOULD be growing in CRR -- even under our heavy canopy -- that ARE NOT HERE!

I walk my property very often. I have seen every one of these native plants start to grow --- but they are eaten by deer within a several weeks of seeing them. It's easy to recognize when deer eat plants. They only have teeth on one jaw. The other jaw is just a soft pad. Their bites create "tearing" edges -- not sharp ones like you would see from animals with teeth on booth jaws. A simple magnifying glass can confirm this.

Hi Sally! Did you know this? Probably not. Google it. I'm sure you can find "experts" who claim that this is not true. .....But amuse me, please.

Anonymous said...

Same tired old BS and name calling and rantings from the same crazy lunatic.

He didn't start his blog back up because of you, Chris, he started it back up because he's been banned from every other place and having his own blog is the only place he can post his crazy stuff without getting banned! He also doesn't allow comments to be made on HIS blog. Why not, Mr. Freeman? Afraid someone will expose your lies?

His libelous comments against Ms. Anderson are so untrue it's ridiculous. His obsession with trying to achieve a culling is, as you said, hurting his cause more than helping it. His continuous defamation of anyone not agreeing with him by calling them "uneducated" and "ignorant" is ridiculous and has isolated him from many people.

BTW, I live in an area where there are a LOT of deer and I have Mayapples, Trilliums that grow and bloom into beautiful burgundy red flowers, and a lot of other plants down in the woods that the deer don't eat. But I can't grow anything in my yard because the trees block out all the sunlight.

Sally Baldwin said...

Sorry, Bryan, but that wasn't me. I actually post under my real name. I think Mr. Goodson could verify by IP number, since I'm sure you won't believe me. *SHRUGS*



Brian Freeman said...

Funny that this person misspelled my name the same way that you do. But I'll take your word for it and apologize and just say that my comments apply to whomever was posing as you.

Brian Freeman said...

"Anonymous" folks are always making threats about "libelous statements. They just do it to make themselves feel big and powerful and try to scare off people who are revealing information that they wish to keep secret by expressing them as an opinion. Opinions are never libelous. The only statements I make regard what I've seen with my own eyes and have made copies of.... Or information I can obtain through a subpoena. ...Like YOUR IP address.

So go ahead and threaten all you want, "anonymous". (yawn)

Brian Freeman said...

Oh, and yes, I did restart my blog because of Chris. Period.

Interesting that "anonymous" knows that I was blocked from the CRRA Community board. They never told me why they did, but frankly, I didn't care. That's why I never mentioned it anywhere else. But "anonymous" knew that. I wonder how. He/she must be on the staff of CRRA, because they are the only other people who would know.

But no, Chris. I restarted my blog because you are posing as an expert on deer. I'm not either, but I know one heck of a lot more than you do. Your statement that "Deer eat corn in nature" and that "it's like an energy drink for them" is far beyond ignorant. I can send you links to scientific articles where deer were found starved to death with their stomachs full of corn. (In Minnesota, not here.)

So don't let your buddies make you feel better. Your ignorance and refusal to be impartial is why I'm hear. Block me if you want. Delete all my posts. It will only prove that I am right and you have no interest in *really* considering both sides of the story.

You'd really be doing me a favor...

Brian Freeman said...

It's also funny that Diane Anderson sent me an email two days ago that made the same comment that people have been saying "libelous" things about her. Coincidence? Probably.

Personally I don't trust her. At all. I have my reasons for this and I will keep them to myself. But there is nothing libelous about me saying that I do not trust her. It's an opinion. There is nothing illegal about me expressing an opinion.

Whoever you are, anonymous, you aren't doing her or you any favors by ranting like this. At least I provide some information and personal perspectives in my posts. Yours are just personal attacks against me. Not at all libelous. They are just your opinion. Meh. Like I care.

Brian Freeman said...

Sorry Chris, but I have to point out one more really ridiculous thing you said on this post....

"Reintroduce wolves".....!!!??? Honestly, I would absolutely LOVE that. Wolves are AWESOME! And it will NEVER HAPPEN... Most CRR members totally freak out when they see a coyote! One of the Eco Committee members even expressed a concern against doing anything that might encourage a growth in the Coyote population. (Read the minutes.)

So let me get this straight, Chris. It's ok if wolves kill deer. If they rip them apart and start eating them while their hearts are still beating.

But it's NOT ok if hunters kill deer quickly and cleanly -- to take the place of what wolves would do painfully and "cruelly" -- hypothetical wolves that will NEVER be re-introduced here.

Wow. All I can say is ... interesting.

Brian Freeman said...

Oh! Hi "Ann"... As in "Ann-nonymous"

Unknown said...

Brian,

Your quote "Oh, and yes, I did restart my blog because of Chris. Period."

Good. I'm glad to see that you are reading my material and it is making you think. As much as you post here I'm guessing you hang on my every word. One should not be so narcissistic to think I or my readers care why you reactivated your blog.

Next quote: "But no, Chris. I restarted my blog because you are posing as an expert on deer."

I don't think so at all, but you continue to through the same, er, 'stuff' against the wall and hope it sticks.

Next quote: "Give me your proof, not your opinions. Your comments are highly irrational and uninformed. Prove me wrong."

I have never said I was deer expert and have been sharing my thoughts, comments and opinions. They are just that. Sorry if you want more but my content is my content and is not written to satisfy you - maybe you are trolling a blog that just isn't a good fit for you.

In short, understand that this is not a message board for your continued tirades, discussion and comments about other CRR owners. I kindly ask that you stop or I will remove your comments. You may believe that you are a force in CRR to be reckoned with, that your voice is feared or your opinion is the only one that matters. Your opinion matters about as much as mine, so if you don't like what you are reading then I suggest you move on.

Regards,

Chris

Anonymous said...

Isn't it funny how Mr. Freeman has posted as "Anonymous" four times here (and we all know it's him) and then he ridicules and attacks others for posting as Anonymous?

As far as him being blocked from the CRR website, I don't see where it was mentioned that he was blocked from there. However, anyone can just go to the site and see that all of his posts have been removed and it's locked for posting new responses to messages. HE is the one that just told everyone that he is blocked from that site, not the person that made that post!

But why is he posting such stuff on your blog, Chris? Yours is so enjoyable to read! Doesn't he have his own blog that he can post his ridiculous rants on?

Just to frustrate him, I'm posting this as Anonymous!

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Anonymous! I love the anonymous comments! Maybe I'll write my next post as 'Anonymous' even though everyone will no it's me:)

Anonymous said...

*know....geez.

Anonymous said...

LOL, or he'll just take his blog down!

Sorry, the blog at life-at-crr.blogspot.com has been removed. This address is not available for new blogs.

Maybe he didn't pay the bill? LOL!